martin luther king jr vietnam war speech transcript

King Leads Chicago Peace Rally, New York Times, 26 March 1967. King, Remaining Awake Through a Great Revolution, in A Knock at Midnight, ed. And they are surely right to wonder what kind of new government we plan to help form without them the only party in real touch with the peasants. Attachment 4: Are We Ready to Listen to Dr. King? It was, to your earlier point, the most controversial speech he ever gave. On April 4, 1967 Martin Luther King Jr. wrote a speech named, "Beyond Vietnam- A Time to Break Silence" addressing the Vietnam War. 0000012562 00000 n American Rhetoric: Martin Luther King, Jr: A Time to Break Silence (Declaration Against the Vietnam War) M artin L uther K ing, J r. Beyond Vietnam -- A Time to Break Silence Delivered 4 April 1967, Riverside Church, New York City [Photo Credit: John C. Goodwin] [AUTHENTICITY CERTIFIED: Text version below transcribed directly from audio. But the entire speech, of course, thankfully, was recorded on audio. It will become clear that our minimal expectation is to occupy it as an American colony and men will not refrain from thinking that our maximum hope is to goad China into a war so that we may bomb her nuclear installations. So practically everybody in his inner circle was against him giving it - one, because they knew the kind of pushback he was going to get. (2)] Mr. SMILEY: We - let me just tell you this. He did say he was going to increase troop levels in Afghanistan, so he's kept that promise. But it ends up being the most controversial speech. The authoritative record of NPRs programming is the audio record. Dr. Nearly five years after Kings assassination, American troops withdrew from Vietnam and a peace treaty declared South and North Vietnam independent of each other. The New York Times calls it wasteful and self-defeating. In "People and Peace, not Profits and War," Shirley Chisholm repeats the words "two more years" (42). The speech and its echoes for Afghanistan and Iraq are the subject of "Tavis Smiley Reports MLK: A Call to Conscience.". 5. The Americans are forcing even their friends into becoming their enemies. CONAN: Indeed, it was Oslo. CONAN: Well, take us back to 1967. At what cost? "[24] King quoted a United States official who said that from Vietnam to Latin America, the country was "on the wrong side of a world revolution. I could not be silent in the face of such cruel manipulation of the poor. And when you see the piece on "Lens" tonight that's the part of the speech that set off so many of those who are in King's inner circle, so many scholars who have written about King. JwNt YHiA:{p . Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was born in Atlanta, GA on January 15th, 1929. 0000040748 00000 n I Have a Dream, speech by Martin Luther King, Jr., that was delivered on August 28, 1963, during the March on Washington. The peasants may well wonder if we plan to build our new Vietnam on such grounds as these? I've always argue that Dr. King is the greatest American we've ever produced. Undeterred, King, Spock, and Harry Belafonte led 10,000 demonstrators on an anti-war march to the United Nations on 15 April 1967. 0000004855 00000 n NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This is the calling of the sons of God, and our brothers wait eagerly for our response. When you read the speech, if you replace the word Vietnam, every time it pops up, with the word Iraq, Afghanistan or Pakistan, you will be - it will blow your mind at how King, where he alive today at 81, could really stand up and give that same speech and just replace, again, Vietnam with Iraq and Afghanistan. But Martin understood very clearly that what we ought to be doing at home is being - we are being distracted, rather, by our engagement around the world. Challenges of the final years of Martin Luther King, Jr. Therefore the first hope in our inventory must be the hope that love is going to have the last word.. Sermons and speeches of Martin Luther King Jr. "Vincent Harding dies at 82; historian wrote controversial King speech", "Vincent Harding, author of Martin Luther King Jr.'s antiwar speech, dies", "The Rev. I speak as an American to the leaders of my own nation. Increasingly, by choice or by accident, this is the role our nation has taken the role of those who make peaceful revolution impossible by refusing to give up the privileges and the pleasures that come from the immense profits of overseas investment. They question our political goals and they deny the reality of a peace settlement from which they will be excluded. We were taking the black young men who had been crippled by our society and sending them eight thousand miles away to guarantee liberties in Southeast Asia which they had not found in southwest Georgia and East Harlem. n/a martin luther king jr. (born michael king january 15, 1929 april 1968) was an american baptist minister and activist, one of the most prominent leaders in . 0000001616 00000 n In Martin Luther King Jr.'s Vietnam speech, lines 413-416, he repeats the phrase "this is not just" (161). 2. That night Dr. King shocked the world and his followers when . There is something seductively tempting about stopping there and sending us all off on what in some circles has become a popular crusade against the war in Vietnam. And King gives a great speech out of that hospital called "If I Had Sneezed." Over the past two years, as I have moved to break the betrayal of my own silences and to speak from the burnings of my own heart, as I have called for radical departures from the destruction of Vietnam, many persons have questioned me about the wisdom of my path. Therefore, communism is a judgment against our failure to make democracy real and follow through on the revolutions we initiated. Beyond Vietnam: A Time to Break Silence . . PBS talk show host Tavis Smiley's new documentary, MLK: A Call to Conscience explores King's speech. We must be prepared to match actions with words by seeking out every creative means of protest possible. U.S. House Select Committee on Assassinations, Martin Luther King Jr. Records Collection Act, King: A Filmed Record Montgomery to Memphis, The Witness: From the Balcony of Room 306, Martin Luther King and the Montgomery Story, Joseph Schwantner: New Morning for the World; Nicolas Flagello: The Passion of Martin Luther King. Perhaps only his sense of humor and of irony can save him when he hears the most powerful nation of the world speaking of aggression as it drops thousands of bombs on a poor weak nation more than eight thousand miles away from its shores. complaining of what he described as a double standard that applauded his nonviolence at home, but deplored it when applied "toward little brown Vietnamese children. Set a date that we will remove all foreign troops from Vietnam in accordance with the 1954 Geneva agreement. For nine years we vigorously supported the French in their abortive effort to recolonize Vietnam. It includes a portion of his speech. Dr. Grossfield, Stan. This is the message of the great Buddhist leaders of Vietnam. Over the bleached bones and jumbled residue of numerous civilizations are written the pathetic words: Too late. There is an invisible book of life that faithfully records our vigilance or our neglect. The initiative to stop it must be ours. 20072023 Blackpast.org. Check your local listings. 800-989-8255, email us talk@npr.org. So we watch them in brutal solidarity burning the huts of a poor village, but we realize that they would never live on the same block in Detroit. 0000001700 00000 n Let us hope that this spirit will become the order of the day. "[14][15], The "Beyond Vietnam" speech reflected King's evolving political advocacy in his later years, which paralleled the teachings of the progressive Highlander Research and Education Center, with which he was affiliated. He turned that into a great speech when he got out of the hospital. Thanks, as always for your time. So, that's all I had to say. With this powerful commitment we shall boldly challenge the status quo and unjust mores and thereby speed the day when every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low, and the crooked shall be made straight and the rough places plain.. With that tragic decision we rejected a revolutionary government seeking self-determination, and a government that had been established not by China (for whom the Vietnamese have no great love) but by clearly indigenous forces that included some Communists. ) fuG {*pZ//e,QTx)%TuS%@^2j/?Nf7nx!]OvqJG=_oD3?VUMs+tM95X )G~1b'g])!`]:|OwHh-J6ZHg{Z9N3b!\#9"zhT\]sp2WtTal =YvkO8yu 6^,n,v$+u$|^1wUF}GGc=p!e#F\]xx6l~NTYSmc /ut^*WTPO Cp =-FQW.]y#F6NsQ2Qzqz=|v94+JC?w4,|yi4T0eIaaeD2-Y1 This call for a world-wide fellowship that lifts neighborly concern beyond ones tribe, race, class and nation is in reality a call for an all-embracing and unconditional love for all men. During the last year of his life, King worked with Spock to develop Vietnam Summer, a volunteer project to increase grassroots peace activism in time for the 1968 elections. Even though they quoted the American Declaration of Independence in their own document of freedom, we refused to recognize them. Moreover when the issues at hand seem as perplexed as they often do in the case of this dreadful conflict we are always on the verge of being mesmerized by uncertainty; but we must move on. On April 4, 1967 Martin Luther King Jr. wrote a speech named, "Beyond Vietnam- A Time to Break Silence" addressing the Vietnam War. The Riverside Church donated largely with Rockefeller money. This speech was enormously controversial. I feel that Martin Luther King and Muhammad Ali are two of the, you know, greatest Americans we've ever had. In the 1950s and 1960s, his words led the Civil Rights Movement and helped change society. Check your local listings. We must move past indecision to action. But they chose Riverside because King was going to be speaking some days later at a huge rally and march in New York City, and they knew that that rally was going to bring out a different kind of element, a more controversial element. Some civil rights leaders urged King not to speak out on the Vietnam War, but he said he could not separate issues of economic injustice, racism, war, and militarism. I just wanted to say that I was an 18-year-old Marine in Vietnam when the speech was given, and I didn't hear it until three or four years ago. What liberators? Arent you hurting the cause of your people, they ask? [citation needed], One of the eight "sound cells" in @Large, Ai Weiwei's 201415 exhibit at Alcatraz, features King's voice giving the "Beyond Vietnam" speech. I speak as a citizen of the world, for the world as it stands aghast at the path we have taken. At the heart of their concerns this query has often loomed large and loud: Why are you speaking about war, Dr. King? P: (650) 723-2092 | F: (650) 723-2093 | kinginstitute@stanford.edu| Campus Map. When I speak of love I am not speaking of some sentimental and weak response. It comes to see that an edifice which produces beggars needs restructuring. Indeed, you play parts of President Obama's speech to the Nobel Committee there in Stockholm where he received the award. Rev. [16][17] King began to speak of the need for fundamental changes in the political and economic life of the nation, and more frequently expressed his opposition to the war and his desire to see a redistribution of resources to correct racial and economic injustice. It tells why American helicopters are being used against guerrillas in Colombia and why American napalm and green beret forces have already been active against rebels in Peru. %PDF-1.3 % They wander into the towns and see thousands of the children, homeless, without clothes, running in packs on the streets like animals. We have corrupted their women and children and killed their men. And Walt's with us from Cortez in Colorado. This I believe to be the privilege and the burden of all of us who deem ourselves bound by allegiances and loyalties which are broader and deeper than nationalism and which go beyond our nations self-defined goals and positions. King spoke strongly against the U.S.'s role in the war, arguing that the U.S. was in Vietnam "to occupy it as an American colony" and calling the U.S. government "the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today. trailer << /Size 93 /Info 36 0 R /Root 40 0 R /Prev 148547 /ID[<8f2b4dd6f2f061944c7ff807c44fcc1f><651247ae294a1a197a948cb3bc3f8412>] >> startxref 0 %%EOF 40 0 obj << /Type /Catalog /Pages 38 0 R /Metadata 37 0 R /Threads 41 0 R /Names 43 0 R /OpenAction [ 44 0 R /XYZ null null null ] /PageMode /UseNone /PageLabels 35 0 R >> endobj 41 0 obj [ 42 0 R ] endobj 42 0 obj << /I << /Title (A)>> /F 45 0 R >> endobj 43 0 obj << /Dests 33 0 R >> endobj 91 0 obj << /S 76 /E 200 /L 216 /Filter /FlateDecode /Length 92 0 R >> stream The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, for example, issued a statement against merging the civil rights and peace movements. Martin Luther King: Beyond Vietnam and Remaining Awake Through a Great Revolution, 90th Cong., 2d sess., Congressional Record 114 (9 April 1968): 93919397. Mr. SMILEY: Yeah. This quote is from a sermon by Dr. King on April 30, 1967 at Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta, Georgia, drawing from his infamous April 4 sermon at Riverside Church. 0000044282 00000 n Visit our website terms of use and permissions pages at www.npr.org for further information. 1967 speech delivered by Martin Luther King Jr. Some of us who have already begun to break the silence of the night have found that the calling to speak is often a vocation of agony, but we must speak. 0000004621 00000 n Dr. Benjamin Spock (2nd-L), Martin Luther King, Jr. (C), Father Frederick Reed and Cleveland Robinson lead a huge pacifist rally protesting U.S. involvement in the Vietnam war, Mar. You can also join the conversation at our Web site. How are you, sir? Will our message be that the forces of American life militate against their arrival as full men, and we send our deepest regrets? 0000002004 00000 n 0000007161 00000 n They must see Americans as strange liberators. [26], The same year, King nominated Buddhist monk Thich Nhat Hanh for the Nobel Peace Prize, but the prize was not awarded to anyone that year. The choice is ours, and though we might prefer it otherwise we must choose in this crucial moment of human history. Thank you. (AFP via Getty Images) "Why are you speaking about the war, Dr. King? But instead there came the United States, determined that Ho should not unify the temporarily divided nation, and the peasants watched again as we supported one of the most vicious modern dictators our chosen man, Premier Diem. And let's see if we can get another caller on the line. Hundreds of folks listened outside on loudspeakers. Not only that, but then-President Lyndon Johnson disinvited King to the White House. Well, it was taken in that context, anyway. But I'm hoping that people will get a chance, once they see the speech, they'll be moved to go read the speech and to make comparisons, Neal. On April 4, 1967, exactly one year before his assassination, Martin Luther King Jr. delivered a speech in New York City at Riverside Church on the occasion of his becoming co-chairperson of Clergy and Laymen Concerned About Vietnam (subsequently renamed Clergy and Laity Concerned ). Now let us rededicate ourselves to the long and bitter but beautifulstruggle for a new world. PBS talk show. In 1957 when a group of us formed the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, we chose as our motto: To save the soul of America. We were convinced that we could not limit our vision to certain rights for black people, but instead affirmed the conviction that America would never be free or saved from itself unless the descendants of its slaves were loosed completely from the shackles they still wear. 0000005696 00000 n Because, to your point now, one, I want people to go online and read the speech so you can see the text for yourself. 0000013330 00000 n Mr. SMILEY: Yeah, Walt, I thank you for sharing that story as well, for being courageous to tell it, number one. Is it among these voiceless ones? They see the children selling their sisters to our soldiers, soliciting for their mothers. His speech appears below. I speak for those whose land is being laid waste, whose homes are being destroyed, whose culture is being subverted. After he gives it, 168 major newspapers the next day denounce him. M ost Americans remember Martin Luther King Jr. for his dream of what this country could be, a nation where his children would "not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content. After the French were defeated it looked as if independence and land reform would come again through the Geneva agreements. 0000003503 00000 n This speech is not addressed to Hanoi or to the National Liberation Front. "The press is being stacked against me", King said,[13] We most provide the medical aid that is badly needed, making it available in this country if necessary. On April 4, 1967, exactly one year before his assassination, Dr. Martin Luther King gave his first major public address on the war in Vietnam at a meeting of Clergy and Laity Concerned at Riverside Church in New York City. When Diem was overthrown they may have been happy, but the long line of military dictatorships seemed to offer no real changeespecially in terms of their need for land and peace. Your donation is fully tax-deductible. HdTn0+=3hRnm)zK#-t\|Ha)S Read The Full Text And Listen To Martin Luther King, Jr.'s "Beyond Vietnam" Speech. King delivered the speech, sponsored by the group Clergy and Laymen Concerned About Vietnam, after committing to participate in New York's April 15, 1967 anti-Vietnam war march from Central Park to the United Nations, sponsored by the Spring Mobilization to End the War in Vietnam. As if the weight of such a commitment to the life and health of America were not enough, another burden of responsibility was placed upon me in 1964; and I cannot forget that the Nobel Prize for Peace was also a commission a commission to work harder than I had ever worked before for the brotherhood of man. This is a calling that takes me beyond national allegiances, but even if it were not present I would yet have to live with the meaning of my commitment to the ministry of Jesus Christ. Mr. TAVIS SMILEY (Host, "The Tavis Smiley Show"): Neal, always an honor to be on with you. They wander into the hospitals, with at least twenty casualties from American firepower for one Vietcong-inflicted injury. A few years ago there was a shining moment in that struggle. It makes for an excellent teaching tool for a unit on the Civil Rights Movement, Cold War and Vietnam, or as a bridge to combine the two! $25.00. Copy of full text of the "Beyond Vietnam" speech. He would no longer be respected. Where are the roots of the independent Vietnam we claim to be building? Hanoi remembers how our leaders refused to tell us the truth about the earlier North Vietnamese overtures for peace, how the president claimed that none existed when they had clearly been made. 0000002427 00000 n This Hindu-Moslem-Christian-Jewish-Buddhist belief about ultimate reality is beautifully summed up in the first epistle of Saint John: Let us love one another; for love is God and everyone that loveth is born of God and knoweth God. Later that year King framed the issue of war in Vietnam as a moral issue: As a minister of the gospel, he said, I consider war an evil. They see the children, degraded by our soldiers as they beg for food. Beyond Vietnam2 in that . If Dr. King were to say to the organizers of these events, I'd like to show up at your church on Sunday morning, at your rally this weekend, and here's what I want to say, there is a good argument to be made that Dr. King himself might not be welcome - might not be allowed to say what was in his heart, what his conscience really was, given the political correctness of the world that we live in today. 0000002247 00000 n Exactly one year before his assassination, on April 4, 1967, Rev. Communism will never be defeated by the use of atomic bombs or nuclear weapons. n the one hand we are called to play the good Samaritan on lifes roadside; but that will be only an initial act. Of course, again, that philosophy, when the papers got a hold of him the next day, that strategy didn't work so well. Could it be that they do not know that the good news was meant for all men for Communist and capitalist, for their children and ours, for black and for white, for revolutionary and conservative? It is with such activity in mind that the words of the late John F. Kennedy come back to haunt us. The recent statement of your executive committee are the sentiments of my own heart and I found myself in full accord when I read its opening lines: A time comes when silence is betrayal. That time has come for us in relation to Vietnam. So we have been repeatedly faced with the cruel irony of watching Negro and white boys on TV screens as they kill and die together for a nation that has been unable to seat them together in the same schools. This has driven many to feel that only Marxism has the revolutionary spirit. The great initiative in this war is ours. 16, 1967 in New York. 0000003454 00000 n Martin Luther King Jr. was a social activist that led the Civil Rights Movement, and other movements until his assassination in 1968. The Washington Post says he has done a discredit to himself, to his people, to his country. But certainly one of the greatest orators of our time. Martin Luther King Jr. held his acceptance speech in the auditorium of the University of Oslo on 10 December 1964. By the time King made the "Beyond Vietnam" speech, Smiley tells host Neal Conan, "he had fallen off already the list of most-admired Americans as tallied by Gallup every year." Tomorrow, the latest installment with the political junkie. Dr. King is trying to get the point across that our country is being unfair to others. In 1968, King was planning a national occupation of Washington, D., to be called the Poor People's Campaign, when he was assassinated on April 4 in . [27], In 2010, PBS commentator Tavis Smiley said that the speech was the most controversial speech of King's career, and the one he "labored over the most". The first signs of opposition to King's tactics from within the civil rights movement surfaced during the March 1965 demonstrations in Selma, Alabama, which were aimed at dramatizing the need for a federal voting-rights law that would provide legal support for the enfranchisement of . I join with you in this meeting because I am in deepest agreement with the aims and work of the organization which has brought us together: Clergy and Laymen Concerned about Vietnam. Estate of Martin Luther King, Jr., Inc. v. CBS, Inc. Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC), African American founding fathers of the United States, Statue of Martin Luther King Jr. (Pueblo, Colorado), Martin Luther King Jr. Memorial, San Francisco. Here is the true meaning and value of compassion and nonviolence when it helps us to see the enemys point of view, to hear his questions, to know his assessment of ourselves. CONAN: We (unintelligible) to see it. In his 1967 speech on the Vietnam War, Martin Luther King, Jr. employs figurative language and syntactical elements to construct his argument against the hypocrisy and cruelty of American involvement in the war. Jazmyn Ford. This speech was written and basically read word for word so that they could have a copy to give to mainstream newspapers across the country for their consideration, because King did not want to be misquoted Mr. SMILEY: or misunderstood, although that didn't work. On April 4, 1967, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. delivered a controversial sermon opposing the Vietnam War at Riverside Church in Morningside Heights, then helped lead a large antiwar march from Central Park to the United Nations later that month. It's a powerful refrain, Neal, about what would've happened in his life, what he would've missed if he had sneezed at that very moment. Part of our ongoing commitment might well express itself in an offer to grant asylum to any Vietnamese who fears for his life under a new regime which included the Liberation Front. I must cry out when I see war escalated at any point (Opposes Vietnam War). He passed the Civil Rights Act. I speak for those whose land is being laid waste, whose homes are being destroyed, whose. Even before the French were defeated at Dien Bien Phu, they began to despair of the reckless action, but we did not. "[24] King condemned America's "alliance with the landed gentry of Latin America", and said that the U.S. should support "the shirtless and barefoot people" in the Third World rather than suppressing their attempts at revolution. BlackPast.org is a 501(c)(3) non-profit and our EIN is 26-1625373. War is not the answer. I have not urged a mechanical fusion of the civil rights and peace movements. The question is, is it a war of necessity or a war of choice at this point? The major speech at Riverside Church in New York City, followed several interviews[2] and several other public speeches in which King came out against the Vietnam War and the policies that created it. His speech appears below. 0000003415 00000 n This kind of positive revolution of values is our best defense against communism. Procrastination is still the thief of time. Answering press questions after addressing a Howard University audience on 2 March 1965, King asserted that the war in Vietnam was accomplishing nothing and called for a negotiated settlement (Schuette, King Preaches on Non-Violence). HOWARD: How are you doing, Tavis? Email us: talk@npr.org. What do the peasants think as we ally ourselves with the landlords and as we refuse to put any action into our many words concerning land reform? What then can I say to the Vietcong or to Castro or to Mao as a faithful minister of this one? There is nothing, except a tragic death wish, to prevent us from reordering our priorities, so that the pursuit of peace will take precedence over the pursuit of war. Howard's calling us from South Bend. In describing the ways in which the . Watch a newsfilm clip of the speech . I've always thought that was, to me, his best speech, his most consequential speech, even better than I have a dream in the mountain top speech. And what really got him to the point of figuring that he really, really had to address this again back to the children, he couldn't say to young folks in this country who were being denied, that they should engage nonviolence as a philosophy when he saw the children, when he saw these pictures of these Vietnamese children being bombed and the impact - the effect that napalm was having on their bodies. Why are you joining the voices of dissent? CONAN: And I think a lot of people will see your parallels regarding Iraq, where, indeed, the United States was the aggressor in that conflict. Do you find this information helpful? In order to atone for our sins and errors in Vietnam, we should take the initiative in bringing a halt to this tragic war. So even McNamara eventually comes around to that point. I would like to suggest five concrete things that our government should do immediately to begin the long and difficult process of extricating ourselves from this nightmarish conflict: 1. or 404 526-8968. I say we must enter the struggle, but I wish to go on now to say something even more disturbing. 0000009964 00000 n A genuine revolution of values means in the final analysis that our loyalties must become ecumenical rather than sectional. CONAN: And one thing that I was unaware of was the timing of the speech in that he had wanted to say something along these lines. 0000011437 00000 n 0000001645 00000 n CONAN: We're talking with Tavis Smiley about his PBS special, "Tavis Smiley Reports MLK: A Call to Conscience." The moving finger writes, and having writ moves on We still have a choice today; nonviolent coexistence or violent co-annihilation. 0000002964 00000 n We are adding cynicism to the process of death, for they must know after a short period there that none of the things we claim to be fighting for are really involved. 0000009147 00000 n Perhaps the more difficult but no less necessary task is to speak for those who have been designated as our enemies. 0000030467 00000 n What of the National Liberation Front that strangely anonymous group we call VC or Communists? And his argument, basically, was that I cannot, as a practitioner and a true believer in nonviolence, espouse that nonviolent philosophy in our movement and then somehow sit idly by when I see violence being engaged around the world. So it is that those of us who are yet determined that America will be are led down the path of protest and dissent, working for the health of our land. Sorry, I'm a little bit emotional here. It was sending their sons and their brothers and their husbands to fight and to die in extraordinarily high proportions relative to the rest of the population. To me the relationship of this ministry to the making of peace is so obvious that I sometimes marvel at those who ask me why I am speaking against the war. And thirdly, I think the main point here in this MLK "Beyond Vietnam" speech is that there is another way. He is best known for helping achieve civil equality for African Americans, but these speeches--selected because they were each presented at a turning point in the . For the peasants this new government meant real land reform, one of the most important needs in their lives. A few years ago there was a shining moment. Martin built his speech that night, Neal, around three major points: around increasing militarism, around escalating poverty and around the issue of racism. Mr. SMILEY: He'd wanted to give it two years earlier and had attempted a dry run at this speech, to your appoint, Neal, a couple of years prior to when he gave it.

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